579 replies to this topic

[TheBallisAlwaysClean]

all the talent in the world means fuck all if you dont have the attitude to go with it. Look at Quaresma a player with ridiculous quality on the ball, but he lacks the mentality to be a top player. You can even use Nani as an example. When I first seen Nani I thougth he had potential to rival Ronaldo because on pure raw talent they looked completely identical when they first signed for Man U. Nani doesnt have the desire, determination and work rate that Ronaldo has that seen him improve astronomically since his debut at Man U and not many players in the world do. Walcott is another player who isnt the most talented but he has a perfect attitude and one that will see him continually improve on his short comings. That Wellington kid looks really good on the ball, but he is gonna be wasted potential if he cant humble himself and look to improve rather than throwing tantrums everywhere he goes.

in life, your attitude determines your latitude

[ArsenalMan]

TheBallisAlwaysClean, on 15 May 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

all the talent in the world means !@#$%^&* all if you dont have the attitude to go with it. Look at Quaresma a player with ridiculous quality on the ball, but he lacks the mentality to be a top player. You can even use Nani as an example. When I first seen Nani I thougth he had potential to rival Ronaldo because on pure raw talent they looked completely identical when they first signed for Man U. Nani doesnt have the desire, determination and work rate that Ronaldo has that seen him improve astronomically since his debut at Man U and not many players in the world do. Walcott is another player who isnt the most talented but he has a perfect attitude and one that will see him continually improve on his short comings. That Wellington kid looks really good on the ball, but he is gonna be wasted potential if he cant humble himself and look to improve rather than throwing tantrums everywhere he goes.

in life, your attitude determines your latitude

Nani is one of the best and most complete widemen in world football. He's twice the player he was when he first joined Man Utd as a raw and ineffective show pony. Nani is like Kosicelny, people seem to judge him on the player he was and not the player he is now.

What seperates Ronaldo from Nani is his finishing and goal scoring. Nani gets a ridiculous amount of assist when he plays. Two footed, one of the the best crossers of the ball in Europe, can consistently beat his man and he can cut in or go down line and put in his usual world class service.

Edited by ArsenalMan, 15 May 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[CWD14]

TheBallisAlwaysClean, on 15 May 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

all the talent in the world means fuck all if you dont have the attitude to go with it. Look at Quaresma a player with ridiculous quality on the ball, but he lacks the mentality to be a top player. You can even use Nani as an example. When I first seen Nani I thougth he had potential to rival Ronaldo because on pure raw talent they looked completely identical when they first signed for Man U. Nani doesnt have the desire, determination and work rate that Ronaldo has that seen him improve astronomically since his debut at Man U and not many players in the world do. Walcott is another player who isnt the most talented but he has a perfect attitude and one that will see him continually improve on his short comings. That Wellington kid looks really good on the ball, but he is gonna be wasted potential if he cant humble himself and look to improve rather than throwing tantrums everywhere he goes.

in life, your attitude determines your latitude

You're pretty much spot on but ArsenalMan is definitely right about Nani. He's a brilliant player and has developed an unbelievable amount. Since the back end of 09/10 he's been class.

[P90x]

Yeah, they're both right.

Genetics has been very fortunate to Ronaldo, also his level of consistency has been down to staying injury free. Nani missed the last WC when he was in even better form than Ronaldo around that time, these things add up in the long run.
Also, bringing up Ronaldo and Quaresma is pointless, their level of talent maybe up there but their mentality played the overall role in how their careers ended up; Ronaldo was always someone who liked to shoot, coupled with his physical growth his shots got stronger, his body got bigger so heading got bigger. Don't put Ronaldo on this pedestal because there's a level of circumstance involved in his success; going to United where he was one of SAF's golden children given their freedom to express himself, Quaresma didn't have that kind of luck with Barcelona and Rijkaard.

Master Bates, on 15 May 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

Fair enough. I'm not one to just go on stats. I just think there's more to judging a player than youtube compilations. Wellington, like I've said all along, has the potential to be a very good player, but still has a lot to learn yet, don't you think? If he was being relied on as one of our options on the wing next season, then Arsenal would need to seriously wake-up. On one hand, you're looking for us to challenge and be successful but on the other, you want Wellington to be in the squad next season. I don't think he's ready, could maybe do with a loan in England first.

How is there a ''level'' for Arsenal if they don't even play at Arsenal? Get to know the players, the staff and the country. In recent memory, the only person to do well on loan was Wilshere and he had 1 goal, I think. But he knows Arsenal inside and out so it'll be easier for him to integrate.

Edited by P90x, 15 May 2012 - 07:25 PM.

[Master Bates]

Szczesny did brilliantly on loan at Brentford too so basically the two biggest success stories of our youth sides in recent years have had loan spells.

It's hit and miss but it comes down to the player himself. Wellington can get to know the staff over the course of pre-season, etc. I get the feeling that he already does to some extent as he retweets the likes of Ozyakup and seems to be friends with Denilson which suggests that he has spent some time in and around the club when he's been here in between loans. But that's not so much the issue right now.

At the moment, we're talking about a player in the Spanish 2nd division who you admit you have only seen youtube clips of. Let's be realistic, unless the lad is absolutely tearing it up, there's a good chance that he has some developing to do before he is ready to play for Arsenal. That is not to say that he isn't good enough, it's simply making the point that it would be unlikely that he will just suddenly make the step up. He's got a lot to learn just yet.

[TheBallisAlwaysClean]

ArsenalMan, on 15 May 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Nani is one of the best and most complete widemen in world football. He's twice the player he was when he first joined Man Utd as a raw and ineffective show pony. Nani is like Kosicelny, people seem to judge him on the player he was and not the player he is now.

What seperates Ronaldo from Nani is his finishing and goal scoring. Nani gets a ridiculous amount of assist when he plays. Two footed, one of the the best crossers of the ball in Europe, can consistently beat his man and he can cut in or go down line and put in his usual world class service.

im not slating Nani at all, the guy is one of the best players in the league let alone best wideman. What Im saying is the only thing that separates him from Ronaldo(as with many others from Ronaldo) is their attitude. I used Nani as an example because him and Ronaldo were identical players when they first joined Man U. While Nani has made himself a great player, Ronaldo will go down as one of the greatest players ever. The guy has a relentless work rate, he doesnt stop in the gym or in practice which is how he became so good imo. Nani just as much raw ability but didnt work half as hard I bet.

P90x, on 15 May 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Yeah, they're both right.

Genetics has been very fortunate to Ronaldo, also his level of consistency has been down to staying injury free. Nani missed the last WC when he was in even better form than Ronaldo around that time, these things add up in the long run.
Also, bringing up Ronaldo and Quaresma is pointless, their level of talent maybe up there but their mentality played the overall role in how their careers ended up; Ronaldo was always someone who liked to shoot, coupled with his physical growth his shots got stronger, his body got bigger so heading got bigger. Don't put Ronaldo on this pedestal because there's a level of circumstance involved in his success; going to United where he was one of SAF's golden children given their freedom to express himself, Quaresma didn't have that kind of luck with Barcelona and Rijkaard.

its their attitudes that differ. Genetics has been just as kind to Nani as it has to Ronaldo, but i bet Ronaldo has a the better dieting habits which help to keep him injury free. Its his attitude and his approach to his profession that separates him from most others in the sport. He has an inner drive to become the best that a rare few can match which is why he became so damn good. Just look at the trajectory of his career and to say its down to genetics favouring Ronaldo is seriously short handing how driven he is. When it comes to having the perfect attitude there arent many who compare to Ronaldo

[P90x]

Master Bates, on 15 May 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Szczesny did brilliantly on loan at Brentford too so basically the two biggest success stories of our youth sides in recent years have had loan spells.

It's hit and miss but it comes down to the player himself. Wellington can get to know the staff over the course of pre-season, etc. I get the feeling that he already does to some extent as he retweets the likes of Ozyakup and seems to be friends with Denilson which suggests that he has spent some time in and around the club when he's been here in between loans. But that's not so much the issue right now.

At the moment, we're talking about a player in the Spanish 2nd division who you admit you have only seen youtube clips of. Let's be realistic, unless the lad is absolutely tearing it up, there's a good chance that he has some developing to do before he is ready to play for Arsenal. That is not to say that he isn't good enough, it's simply making the point that it would be unlikely that he will just suddenly make the step up. He's got a lot to learn just yet.

Oh ok, so Jack's one goal at Bolton is enough in your eyes to qualify as ''tearing it up''? Well, I guess Wellington's 3 must be world class to you. Do you know what ultimately helped Jack? It was Wenger being at the reserve games, watching him score all those great goals and of course him leading the team to the YFA Cup. And I also seem to recall Arsene smiling at one of his goals. Putting Wellington in another country, to get used to all that then to bring him back and probably won't have the same impact as a settled player, then he gets stigmatized for being shit or something, it's ridiculous. Let him come to Arsenal and play for Arsenal, if he has brilliant performances in the Reserves, get him a place on the bench. Federico Macheda scored a hattrick some days before his goal against Aston Villa. Now people think he's shit because his all his loans hasn't worked.

TheBallisAlwaysClean, on 15 May 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

im not slating Nani at all, the guy is one of the best players in the league let alone best wideman. What Im saying is the only thing that separates him from Ronaldo(as with many others from Ronaldo) is their attitude. I used Nani as an example because him and Ronaldo were identical players when they first joined Man U. While Nani has made himself a great player, Ronaldo will go down as one of the greatest players ever. The guy has a relentless work rate, he doesnt stop in the gym or in practice which is how he became so good imo. Nani just as much raw ability but didnt work half as hard I bet.

lol yes and no.

Ronaldo was always a trigger happy player, he always was and always will be. And to his growth and subsequent hard work, you could put that down to his father dying from smoking so everything points to him being a special case. You don't have to work as hard as he is to be up there with the best. Wellington's main attributes is his dribbling, you put him 1v1 and he will go past you, he will make chances and he will be dangerous.

[Master Bates]

P90x, on 16 May 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

Oh ok, so Jack's one goal at Bolton is enough in your eyes to qualify as ''tearing it up''? Well, I guess Wellington's 3 must be world class to you. Do you know what ultimately helped Jack? It was Wenger being at the reserve games, watching him score all those great goals and of course him leading the team to the YFA Cup. And I also seem to recall Arsene smiling at one of his goals. Putting Wellington in another country, to get used to all that then to bring him back and probably won't have the same impact as a settled player, then he gets stigmatized for being shit or something, it's ridiculous. Let him come to Arsenal and play for Arsenal, if he has brilliant performances in the Reserves, get him a place on the bench. Federico Macheda scored a hattrick some days before his goal against Aston Villa. Now people think he's shit because his all his loans hasn't worked.

Yes, the loan CLEARLY did a lot for Wilshere. Aside from his goal, he also toughened up a bit, not that he wasn't a tough player to begin with, but it added some discipline to his game and helped him adapt quicker to the pace of Premier League and gave him valuable experience. Wilshere himself has said it was a massive benefit to him, still looks out for their results and Wenger said the loan did a lot for him too so I don't get why you're trying to play it down. I wasn't suggesting that it was the be all and end all of a player's development but in the cases of Wilshere and Szczesny it was certainly beneficial to their progress as young players. That is a completely fair point to make and you can't really say otherwise.

Of course loan moves don't always work out and it depends on the club, the player, etc. Remember Man United loaned Rossi to Newcastle a few years ago? That loan was a bit of a disaster as the player clearly had a lot of talent but couldn't get in the Newcastle team regularly and if anything, that halted his progress. So in that sense, I'm not even disagreeing with you because I don't think a loan is necessarily essential. For some players though, like Szczesy, like Wilshere and like Song too, actually, loan moves have been very beneficial.

Lastly, regarding Macheda, he seems to have a poor attitude and that won't help his situation. He didn't really seem to go to QPR with an attitude displaying character and willingness to scrap it out in a relegation battle and I think he needs to look at himself in that regard. He's obviously got talent but he hasn't done enough to show he's got the attitude to make it at the very highest level. If he did, Man United wouldn't keep loaning him out. He could be off in the summer. In his case, I think it hasn't really worked out because he hasn't put enough in and shown enough interest in impressing while on loan.

[P90x]

I agree fully and this is the risk, isn't it? A player does well on loan and has a much better chance of staying at his parent club but in the same case, a bad loan spell shouldn't signal a sign of no progression on the players part.

Style of play and environment play a big part, Rossi obviously had his feet for spanish football.

The Emi has been called Brasil's home away from home, they always seem to play well there. Andre Santos has fit in really well, players who like to dribble and pass tend to always do though.

It hasn't worked for Wellington away, now try it at Arsenal is my suggestion.

[Master Bates]

Agreed but do you not think that generally, if a player has the talent to make it, he'll be given his chance by Arsenal? If you look at how many players we've loaned out in recent seasons, you could be talking for ages about the likes of Wilshere, Szczesny, JET, Watt, Eastmond, Simpson, Randall, Barazite, Hoyte, etc. but of the many, many players that went out on loan, we all sorta knew that Wilshere and Szczesny were the two MAJOR talents there - the ones that would actually fight their way into the Arsenal side and become regulars, not just stop-gap squad players or whatever.

So is it a coincidence that the two brightest talents of all the young players to go on loan were the two who actually made the grade at Arsenal? I very much doubt it; partly because they simply had more quality to display when on loan and partly because the Club were fully aware of the talent they had and therefore, knew that they had what it took to make it at Arsenal before sending them out on loan. I think you could actually say the same for Coquelin, to some extent. He didn't exactly set the world alight at Lorient, wasn't starting every game or anything, but Arsenal KNEW what he could do and how good he could be and that's why he was brought back and brought into the squad.

So you have to think that if Wellington has the talent, he will at some point be given the opportunity to show it, whether that means another loan spell, who knows, but if he is good enough, Arsenal will give him opportunities to display that talent. We know Wenger will and I suspect that he would only love to bring through a world class Brazilian winger who's got the tricks, the style and the quality to help take us to another level. The player himself still has a lot to prove though and I think Arsenal and the scouts will be best placed to judge his progress because unlike us, they are actually watching him regularly.