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Sunderland v Liverpool

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#46   skikdi

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:36 AM

Players might not be good enough to win the league but they're more than good enough to at least get to 4th place. It's got nothing to do with talent but more so attitude and mentality. The amount of chances we've missed this season is pretty much down to mentality. It's in our players minds that whenever we're through on goal, we're gonna miss and it's because of this we haven't progressed.

You really think your squad is better than the Manchester's, Tottenham, Arsenal and Chelsea?


#47   seaders

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 01:52 PM

yup, our squad, City, Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea are better. hell, I'd also definitely put Newcastle's first XI ahead of yours too (Krul, Simpson, Coloccini, Taylor, Santon, Ben Arfa, Tiote, Cabaye, Gutierrez, Cisse and Ba). and then I wouldn't put your first XI too far ahead of Everton's either. I really don't think you guys realise how poor other fans actually consider your team. your a good cup team, but for overall quality, shown over numerous amount of games in a league? no way, not very good 'tall.

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#48   Piksi

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 02:29 PM

Why does it matter what other rival fans think about our team when:

A) They're naturally going to be overly critical just because it's a rival team
B) They don't watch every game

There is a monumental difference between someone like Matt who has logical and rational thought behind his criticisms of Carroll and those of the average troglodyte who just screams "Caroll shit 35m lol" every chance they get.


#49   Dr Tobias Fünke

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 03:36 PM

Our First team.

Reina; Johnson Agger Skrtel Enrique; Gerrard Lucas Henderson; Bellamy Suarez Carroll is not worse than Newcastle starting XI. The problem is our best XI don't fucking play.

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#50   The Colonel

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 04:19 PM

Why does it matter what other rival fans think about our team when:

A) They're naturally going to be overly critical just because it's a rival team
B) They don't watch every game

There is a monumental difference between someone like Matt who has logical and rational thought behind his criticisms of Carroll and those of the average troglodyte who just screams "Caroll shit 35m lol" every chance they get.


But we don't watch every game of every other team. So how do you measure how good there squad is? The table doesn't lie. It's march and we lie 7th. We fucked up big time. We are better than Newcastle without a shaddow of a doubt but I can't see us doing better than 6th.

Our First team.

Reina; Johnson Agger Skrtel Enrique; Gerrard Lucas Henderson; Bellamy Suarez Carroll is not worse than Newcastle starting XI. The problem is our best XI don't fucking play.


No teams play there best XI every week.


#51   rollingstoned

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:32 AM

Yea I guess a few years back the players you paid 20mn for in the summer would have barely got in as squad players. Maybe if your progression is as organic as you want it to be that is what will happen eventually.

#52   Piksi

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:28 AM


But we don't watch every game of every other team. So how do you measure how good there squad is? The table doesn't lie. It's march and we lie 7th. We fucked up big time. We are better than Newcastle without a shaddow of a doubt but I can't see us doing better than 6th.


That's why it's a futile argument. Not saying there's anything really wrong with rival supporters giving their opinion but it can't be used as some sort of barometer for how things are or used as some sort of truth.


#53   Gooner Mark

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:22 PM

Why does it matter what other rival fans think about our team when:

A) They're naturally going to be overly critical just because it's a rival team
B) They don't watch every game

There is a monumental difference between someone like Matt who has logical and rational thought behind his criticisms of Carroll and those of the average troglodyte who just screams "Caroll shit 35m lol" every chance they get.

I don't think this sort of discussion promotes biased opinions because it's not like a fan of one specific team is saying his team > yours. He's saying that several teams - including rivals of his own team, are stronger than your side.

I watch pretty much every Liverpool game on television because my brother is a Liverpool fan and it's clear that your squad isn't good enough right now. You've overspent on some very average players.

Going back to the Arsenal game, I'm never confident when teams come at us but genuinely, I don't think I've been so relaxed all season when a player was coming at Arsenal as I was when Stuart Downing was picking up the ball. Offered no threat whatsoever.


#54   Piksi

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:43 PM

He's saying that we don't realise how poorly other people rate our squad.

#55   Gooner Mark

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:46 PM

Yeah and I was making the point that it doesn't necessarily make him biased or rival fans in general biased because it's not like they're only comparing their own team to yours. They're most probably comparing several rival sides and have judged yours to be one of the weaker out of the top six or seven which doesn't make them biased or overly critical. Some of the rival fan opinion is no different to what many Liverpool fans have been saying themselves. It just doesn't go down as well coming from a United fan, for example.

#56   Piksi

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:01 PM

In an ideal world maybe but I doubt that's the case. I keep bringing up Matt here but so far on this entire forum he's the only rival fan I've seen to make valid, reasoned criticisms of our players (in particular Carroll). The rest have just given the same rehashed two second thought argument. Arsenal Man is one example. Don't want to single him out but he referred to Henderson as our playmaker before the game last week. That's just a flat out wrong analysis of him, and it's not just that poster. I've seen it time and time again, across multiple forums.

Liverpool fans are naturally going to be more inclined to defend their players and rival fans will be more inclined to be critical. Just how it goes. That's why the "x wouldn't get into y's squad" or debates about squads is a bit pointless. Each club has its own unique circumstances and expectations surrounding it. A club like United copes better with pressure than Liverpool so you can't really compare. Adam would probably play better for United but would probably play even worse for Chelsea because of the circumstances of the clubs. Song wouldn't be as useful for United because United have creative outlets everywhere. Valencia wouldn't be as useful for Liverpool or Chelsea because we use different types of wide players.


#57   seaders

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:04 PM

for me like, I really can't see how anyone can say the Liverpool first XI is better than Newcastle's. better wingers, better combination up front, I rate Cabaye and Tiote as two of the best centre-mids in the Premiership better than most of United's options and *certainly* better than Liverpools, I'd put both their fullbacks above yours, Johnson on his day is one of the best fullbacks in the country, but I don't see that happening too often. only in central defence and goalkeeper would I rate your guys higher. honestly, I can't see how many can dispute that, Liverpool fan or no.

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#58   skikdi

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:12 PM

Form and quality are two different things. Suarez and Bellamy are better than Cisse and Ba in spite of their respective form in the league. Suarez, on his day is one of the best in the world. Downing vs. Jonas is tough. Lucas, Henderson, Gerrard are better than Cabaye and Tiote. Lucas is the best DM in the country and, though I like Cabaye, Gerrard still had enough to notch this. Kuyt vs. HBA is another tough one-couldn't find more contrasting players.

So I think I'd understand if most Liverpool fans disagreed with you.


#59   Piksi

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:24 PM

for me like, I really can't see how anyone can say the Liverpool first XI is better than Newcastle's. better wingers, better combination up front, I rate Cabaye and Tiote as two of the best centre-mids in the Premiership better than most of United's options and *certainly* better than Liverpools, I'd put both their fullbacks above yours, Johnson on his day is one of the best fullbacks in the country, but I don't see that happening too often. only in central defence and goalkeeper would I rate your guys higher. honestly, I can't see how many can dispute that, Liverpool fan or no.


Skik answered it well and that's coming from a bonafide Henderson hater.

I can go through and compare them like for like but there's no point. You won't change your opinion. Tiote is not even in the same league as Lucas and besides, they're different players. We don't even have proper cm's at the club. Gerrard, Adam, Henderson and Shelvey all operate far better in the attacking third and are natural attacking players. Spearing and Lucas operate in front of the defence. We are suffering so badly in midfield because we don't have proper midfielders. Cabaye is a natural playmaker and Adam isn't, of course Adam and Liverpool are going to look poorer when you have someone trying to do a job they can't and especially if that job is as important as dictating the midfield.


#60   Travis Bickle

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 06:21 PM

Some of the rubbish being spouted in here is reminiscent of the sort of tosh we had to endure during the bad spells under Benitez. It's quite painful to read at times but meh, it could always be worse I guess.

In an ideal world maybe but I doubt that's the case. I keep bringing up Matt here but so far on this entire forum he's the only rival fan I've seen to make valid, reasoned criticisms of our players (in particular Carroll). The rest have just given the same rehashed two second thought argument. Arsenal Man is one example. Don't want to single him out but he referred to Henderson as our playmaker before the game last week. That's just a flat out wrong analysis of him, and it's not just that poster. I've seen it time and time again, across multiple forums. Liverpool fans are naturally going to be more inclined to defend their players and rival fans will be more inclined to be critical. Just how it goes. That's why the "x wouldn't get into y's squad" or debates about squads is a bit pointless. Each club has its own unique circumstances and expectations surrounding it. A club like United copes better with pressure than Liverpool so you can't really compare. Adam would probably play better for United but would probably play even worse for Chelsea because of the circumstances of the clubs. Song wouldn't be as useful for United because United have creative outlets everywhere. Valencia wouldn't be as useful for Liverpool or Chelsea because we use different types of wide players.


Everybody should read this, read it again and then accept it as the truth.

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